BCR: Or it might have helped somebody.
David Berman: Or it might have helped somebody. The reason I don’t mind talking about drugs and suicide and things like that, even though Cassie and people wish that I would not, is because when I do have the opportunity I should, I think, offer myself up as an example. Because it’s a rare thing for someone to go through all that, come out the other side and be happy and have the things they wanted and figure out why they couldn’t have the things before. In a world as depressing and with as many people suffering as this, if you don’t stand out and say ok, here’s someone on the other side who made it, well...
BCR: That’s the reconciliation of yourself as a role model…
David Berman: The reason I’m a role model is because most people do not want to recognise that term, I will, I will do that because I did not have any role models and I don’t have any kids and I spent so much of my time trying to hide from anyone who knew anything about the music and have my own secret life that I don’t mind it. The only danger in it is not being humble. To me the role I have to fill has some humility to it. That’s why I sacrificed all that time not being on stage.
BCR: You spent a whole decade being pretty humble it’s true… If not longer.
David Berman: I’m not going on and giving up what made me. There’s this incredible celebration of the music and craze for music and musicians in our society that almost goes to nothing else. In other words people in bands who do well can almost do nothing wrong. They’re the only celebrities that actually can even be poor but are deferred to by other people. They may not be making any money but they’ve got a hot record so people will “ahh!”, you know. First of all it’s unrealistic because it makes rock music stop progressing because there’s no criticism of the bands anymore. Yeah, great, your album’s amazing but it would be better if it was actually about something too. But to me that cooperation between the bands that the NME cover, not even making a pretence at journalistic objectivity… they’re trying to bundle criticism and products together and all it is is advertising. Also it’s gone so far to the point, in the states, if a band sells their music to a commercial, not only is there no criticism of it but people actually get angry if you bring up the fact that it might not be such a great idea. People will leap on you and go don’t you know there’s no radio anymore! This is the only way they can get their music played! Don’t you know they have kids! When people start saying that bands have kids and they need to pay for their college education I start to think then they’re in the wrong job. I don’t want to have to worry about the artists that I respect, I’m not here to pay for their kids college education. Their pram in the hallway is the enemy to begin with, as Maggie O'Farrell said. It’s gone to this idolisation, this asymmetrical business between the audience and the bands that is just so uncomfortable.
[We’re then informed that there are only five minutes left of interview time some rapid fire questions are in order.]
BCR: OK! The stuff about Judaism – you re-found faith so how important is that in the writing process now, has it politicised you and what did you mean when you said “I have a mission from God”? Short answer please.
David Berman: Ok, Judaism has affected the record this way: I think without the Judaism, there isn’t an ideology, a philosophy, a way of life that I’ve found that continues the life of the mind and on one hand I’m interested in this civilisation that’s lasted so long and I’m interested in that it has lasted so long despite so many threats to its lasting, so many attempts to stamp it out. I don’t know too much about my relationship with Judaism but I know that the Jewish people… I’m just gonna go with them. Where they go I’ll go.
BCR: Do you mean it fits you or…
David Berman: I don’t feel comfortable because to orthodox Jews I’m not a Jew, I’m a Silver Jew, I’m less than a Jew, I’m a vice Jew because I feel like a fellow traveller of the Jewish people in a sense. A belief in the future and the idea that I have a responsibility to make life on Earth better and thoughts of an afterlife are irrelevant.
BCR: Is that what you meant when you said “I’m afraid to die before I get things done”. What are those things?
David Berman: In Judaism they say it’s not for you to finish the job it’s only for you to contribute to it so first of all Judaism relieves the anxiety. It relieves the anxiety and the things that I wanted to get done, that way of looking at the world, as far as achievements and the future, I’ve been released from that way of thinking and I’ve been released from the fears too. I’ve found a way around what is so odious to me about Christianity and still I feel like hopefully having a chance at joy and happiness and what comes with it. I can only get it for little bits at a time. Jews realistically know that you can’t feel something that you don’t believe and that’s why Jews make you do these things, they make you go through the motions. Acting as if you believe brings it on. The fake it till you make it theory. I definitely think that’s one way I learned through getting sober and stuff, is just pretend and it’ll work. And that’s how it works with going on tour.
BCR: You don’t seem fazed by the stage at all…
David Berman: And that’s the effectiveness of the fear that’s been removed from me about what can possibly happen. I’ve narrowed things down and I’m open to the idea of destiny whereas before I was completely not.
BCR: Manifest or…?
David Berman: Well… I believe that part of it is that I can’t really describe the character of the destiny but it seems to be manifesting itself, yeah. I found myself at a point with no belief system and no purpose. I felt like I was an orphan in the world, and I started to think what if I just started to think like I had this father, this father figure and it was the Jewish God? If that was the case would I have a purpose? Well, yeah! I could use all this music that I’ve built up and I could go out and be an example of a person who wasn’t afraid. Who had gone through hell. And to be a role model it’s so important to me not to go into Judaism, to not convert and leave everybody behind and say hey, I’m happy in here. To me that’s why I’m a fellow traveller in Judaism because even though it might feel nice, the protection and security of redemption, even though Judaism doesn’t really offer an afterlife it feels important to me that I have to keep one foot out in the secular world. Or who would believe me? Because I wouldn’t believe a person who believed.
BCR: But that’s good, it allows you to see both rooms at the same time but you’re standing in the door.
David Berman: Yeah, and it makes you tolerant. Any religion that forces you to believe something will make you intolerant eventually.
BCR: And the last question – if you were to interview yourself what would you ask?
David Berman: I would ask… Are you going to make another record? And I’d reply, I’ll probably know by the end of this tour.
BCR: You’re still not sure? You’ve made two recent joyful, excellent records…
David Berman: But wouldn’t that be a great way to end?
BCR: But you’ve already ended once!
David Berman: If it ended you wouldn’t want to announce it but it’s really hard on the ego, you really start to want that adulation once you get it. I don’t think I have as much to add to poetry but there is a part of me that wants to get down more than I can get down. The memoirs are a hated form but I’m actually looking at it quite seriously. There’s something about memoirs that people criticise, it’s something from the last fifteen years that have become big. Somebody’s going to be writing what it was like to be in their thirties in the nineties or in their twenties in the eighties. It’s like a fight for influence. That’s what I’ve been saying at all the concerts, I want to influence everyone out here! Literally describing what I’m doing.
BCR: Well, I’d rather have someone like you doing it than… Dave Grohl or someone.
David Berman: Or Jello Biafra at this point… He was such a hero to me, he’s the one who got me into writing. I found this poem my cousin wrote when I was fifteen, I thought it was his poem and it was amazing, I thought he was a genius. It was the lyrics to Winnebago Warrior.
And it was there that David Berman was whisked away to other interviews that we had kept waiting and with us left holding a fistful of questions we hadn’t asked. But that seems to be his world now, he has the answers to most of his own questions and asks us to join him. Not to convert you understand, just to listen.
